Speak, and Speak, and Speak!

A podcast for English learners!  Improve your listening skills, practice your pronunciation, learn new vocabulary!     
  
This episode, I'm chatting with Aurora!   We chatted about the differences in the French and English sound worlds, learning English working in a pub (in this case, the pub chain O’Neill’s in the UK), and when you realise you get the joke in English...

Pronunciation tip = Making the difference between the /ʌ/ ("cup") and the /o/ ("cop") vowel sounds.

Presenter = Sam @_emaileng (Twitter, IG), @emaileng (TikTok)     

Music = "Baby Bloodheart" by Mara Carlyle   @MaraCarlyle    www.maracarlyle.bandcamp.com       

Artwork = Penny Rossano  @pennyrossanomusicart (IG)     www.pennyrossanoillustrations.com 

Transcript

EPISODE 26 = SPEAK, AND SPEAK, AND SPEAK!

Hello!  And welcome to Chat ENG – a podcast where people chat about how they learn and use English.  My name is Sam, I’m a CELTA teacher and a performer, and I have a particular interest in pronunciation and expression.   

In each episode, non-native and native speakers will chat about their experiences with English, share their advice and, at the end, I’ll give some pronunciation tips for you to take away and practice.  

So – ready?  Let’s get Chat ENG!

This episode, I’m chatting with Aurora.  Aurora is originally from France and currently lives in the UK - she’s a classical singer, a singing teacher and a French language coach.  We met online for our chat, as we’re in different countries, and the wifi held up pretty well!

We chatted about the differences in the French and English sound worlds, learning English working in a pub (in this case, the pub chain O’Neill’s in the UK) and when you realise you get the joke in English, but I started by asking Aurora to tell me a little bit about herself…

INTERVIEW

A: I am Aurora and I'm a classical singer, but also I have a background in languages… so languages were always my passion from a very young age. So, I started studying English wh I was 11 at secondary school and then I kept going, I went to Latin - which obviously I haven't been able to speak that much (!) but it was very useful in terms of then understanding other languages and with French as well, understanding my native language because of the roots – a lot of it’s from Latin. And then when I went on to study German, it meant that I was able to understand declensions and all these concepts, which obviously is really important in German, and then I studied Spanish…but then my favourite language was always English, so I went to university and decided to specialise in English linguistics, literature and history,

S:  Where you're from and your accent, would a person from France be able to tell where you're from? Do accents change a lot in France, or is it quite a general sound?

A:  Yes, I come from the southwest of France, in the Pyrenees, so the accent is very much recognisable there, and completely different from the accent that you would have in the northern part of France or in Paris. And then we tend to have a more singing way of speaking as well - we speak louder, I think, in general as well… a lot of us come from the countryside, so we are used to speaking outdoors!  And then we’re close to Spain - my side, we're close to Spain, the other side is close to Italy. And so again, there is some influence there. 

S:  You said that English was your favourite language from school? What was it about English that you enjoyed?

A:  Well, you know, I don't know what it was specifically. Sometimes, there are things that just make sense to you and that you're just attracted to, so I guess I've always been attracted to the music of the English language, because - as I've said - I'm a singer and a musician. So, I like the sound of the English language when you speak it and that softness to it. And then of course, you know, growing up all the pop and the cool stuff you would listen to was always in English …so that's also, I think, been a very big part of it.

S:  Do you remember the shift from learning English at school to learning English at university, because you said you studied linguistics? Was it very specific on the pronunciation side of it, then.. sort of the phonemes and the beats in a sentence sort of thing?

A:  Yes, that was very much… not in the first year, but then by the time we got more involved also… actually, you didn't have to choose these modules. Interestingly enough, some of these modules you did, but you know, because I was singing and, at that point, I had a singing teacher in France, and I was really interested in exploring how to make these different vowels and sounds when I sang in different languages, and I was just at the beginning of really exploring that. So when I saw that there was an opportunity to do a module just on that at university, then I did it. And so yes, that's where I learned about phonemes. We had been taught already about phonetics, but that's where I learned about the difference - even in sounds that seem similar in French and English. And I mean, these two languages, even though we live next door, they are so different, that certainly when it comes to the sound world, you couldn't be more opposite, really. And I think sometimes people don't realise that, but something like a ‘T’ or ‘D’, you know, it's going to be much more forward in your tongue in French. If I was speaking with a French accent now, and I want “a cup of tea”, it will be “a cup of tea” because the /k/ and the /t/ in French are very much not aspirated. Whereas, you know, I had to learn that my tongue had to be in a slightly different position, and I had to let some air through to sound British, so it will be “a cup of tea”. So these … all these nuances and, again, not just imitating by ear but really understanding what you're doing and what are the differences with the languages – this I learnt at uni because I chose to specialise, because I was fascinated with these different sound worlds.

S:  Are there any particular sounds that you find tricky still, or have you found ways to even everything out?

A: Um, I wouldn't say I find anything tricky by now. It's not in that sense that …but then there's probably some sounds, I think, some sounds that are very difficult for French people is something like, for people who know about phonetics, the inverted V (= /ʌ/).   You know, that /ʌ/ sound that you get in “sun” - part of me always feels like is it really native the way that I say it, and I know that it's a very difficult one. 

In fact, I remember one of my first jobs, because I first arrived in and worked in an O’Neill's (a UK pub chain) for a few months - I mean, that I recommend, anyone who wants to really know how to speak English, go and work in a pub, you will meet and work with people with all sorts of accents and all sorts of backgrounds!  This is really a baptism of fire, you know, after coming from University, where I was really speaking as you write, to really… it was quite a shock when … they laughed a lot when I, you know, I would say like “Would you mind passing me the salt?” to this guy, and he was like, “No, I need to teach you how to speak… nobody speaks like this!”. So, you know, this is one of the issues when you learn not in the country but in that quite formal way. You know, that I was able to have these intellectual conversations or to write dissertations… quite complex things, you know, but then when it came to speaking on a day-to-day level - unless you're in the country, really, and you interact with people, that's when you learn, and then I remember that when I first arrived, the hardest thing for me actually was understanding people, because of being in London and having this huge array of accents. My manager was from Dublin, but then the Assistant Manager was from Belfast… I mean, that already you've got two really interesting, contrasting things.  Another of my colleagues was from South Africa, and so you had to adjust your ear all the time, really - you know, going on the bus and the bus driver… but again, all sorts of accents going on there. So that was probably the hardest thing for me, actually, when I came because speaking, even though at the beginning maybe I didn't speak in the most natural way, you know, but I was always able to express what I wanted to express…but then understanding people regardless of their accent - that took me quite a few months to get used to that. And then also getting used to if you're going out with some people, and you’re maybe all sitting, and by the time, you know, by the time you got the joke, they've moved on two conversations already. So this is a way of training your brain, to sort of understand as you go along and being able to … I remember being very frustrated because, as you know, I'm quite a communicative person, that I wanted to react and say something funny, but by the time I'd really digested what had been said, and my answer was there, then they'd already moved on. So it was very frustrating for a while!

S:  Do you remember that feeling when you finally had the language ready and at the level that you could get in quickly to tell your side of the joke, or when you felt “Yes, I got that. I understood that joke!  That's hilarious!”  and then, you know, you could contribute quicker? Do you remember that sort of feeling? 

A:  Yeah, I remember that feeling but it wasn't an obvious moment, so it was something that happened quite gradually. And I think also, you know, making friendships and, you know, because that's also part of it, isn't it… feeling that you're with people, and you feel so comfortable with them that you can… I don't know if like everything, you know, if you relax then things tend to happen more easily. So, I think forming friendships and just by that having the opportunity to talk more in English, obviously, you know, and to have proper conversations with people because that's a big part of it, you know, otherwise you only know and learn how to interact for the basic things in life. But that's why, you know, again, another thing I would say to people if you can, if you're learning English, go and live, you know, whether it's in England or America, go and live in an English-speaking country for however long you can, because making these relationships and having this opportunity to talk on different subjects, to have the vocabulary throughout all these subjects – that’s what makes it easy for you to react quickly, because you've talked about these different things before, so… and, you know, humour is such a big part of the culture here in England, it’s a very specific type of humour… yeah, again, that's something that's very difficult to learn in books, because that humour is so ingrained in everything you say, at every level of society here, and that sort of ‘deadpan’ humour, you know that you've just said something funny, but then the person might not be sure, because you didn't change anything in your face. That's very British, that! And that is a whole other level of really speaking a language which has to do with the culture, because it's not just about knowing the words – it’s about really understanding how people communicate in that language, and how they use the words to, in the case of the English language, very often to say one word, but mean the opposite. And how do you understand that? How do you notice that, in that slight physical change in that person? Or just because you've been in enough situations like that, that you know “oh yes they don't mean it!” To reiterate what I said that, you know, learning the language, you have to put the work in, but it's fun, because it's not a matter of “oh, I don't know. And then one day, I know”… on the way you're constantly being able to do new things, to say things, to understand new things. So it's a really fun journey - but you have to look at it as a journey and really enjoy it on the way … and I think one big thing that I would say - don't be afraid to make mistakes, you know? Because, first of all, that's how you learn and also, it's only by communicating - your brain has to put together all these different things for you to really be able to become more fluent in that language. So speak and speak and speak and it doesn't matter if there are mistakes, you know, you will learn from them, but people will still understand you. And while you are in that process, you will make mistakes until one day, you know, suddenly you realise you're not really making mistakes anymore, but I think - like I was saying before – when was that moment that I felt “Oh it’s like being in France for me, you know, I can… I'm thinking in English, I'm speaking English with people, I can have the same humour, I can react like this (click), like I was in French.”? There wasn't a moment. It just happened gradually. So, it's the same with making mistakes and all these things - you just keep doing it until, as you improve, then, you know, one day you won’t!

 S: I think that’s fantastic!

 Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This is a really great point from Aurora – language learning is a journey, so enjoy it!  We know it can be frustrating at times, but the feeling of success when you ask a good question, understand a conversation or get a joke, is totally worth it!

So, this episode’s pronunciation tip is about, as Aurora said, the “inverted V” –  this is the symbol on the International Phonetics Alphabet chart that looks like an upside down ‘V’ (or like a pointy hat!). This is an /ʌ/ sound, and can be a tricky one for learners when they want to make the difference between /ʌ/ and /o/.  When you make these 2 sounds - /ʌ/ … /o/ - notice how your mouth shape changes – relax your jaw and tongue, open the mouth for /ʌ/, and then move your lips forward a little to make /o/ - almost like your lips are making an ‘o’ shape.   Here are 3 sentences to practice the different sounds:  

First:  The words “cup” (what you use to hold tea or coffee) and “cop” (an informal word for a police officer). 

Try this sentence = “This cup belongs to that cop!”

Next:  The words “hot” (meaning a high temperature) and “hut” (a small building, usually made of wood).

Try this sentence = “Is it hot in that hut?”

Finally:  The words “bottom” (the part of your body you sit on, or the base or end of something) and “button” (something you press, or something on your clothes to fasten them).

Try this sentence = “Press the bottom button to get in!”

So, to recap: These sounds have very similar mouth shapes - just bring your lips forward a little to change from the /ʌ/ to the /o/.  Over to you to practice!

So there we are!  The transcript of this episode is available to read on the podcast’s webpage, so take a look!    Join me next time for more pronunciation and grammar tips, more advice and, most importantly, more chatting!   My thanks again to Aurora and, for her music, a huge thanks to the wonderful Mara Carlyle.   Bye for now!