Really?! Whatever!

A podcast for English learners!  Improve your listening skills, practice your pronunciation, learn new vocabulary!     

This episode, I'm chatting with Trevor!   We chatted about discovering you have an accent, the challenges of singing in English, and being excited about new English vocabulary...

Pronunciation tip = making the difference between 'irony' and 'sarcasm' (a tricky thing to master in English!)     

Presenter = Sam  @_emaileng  (Twitter, IG), @emaileng (TikTok)     

Music = "Baby Bloodheart" by Mara Carlyle  @MaraCarlyle    www.maracarlyle.bandcamp.com     

Artwork = Penny Rossano  @pennyrossanomusicart (IG)   www.pennyrossanoillustrations.com     

Transcript

EPISODE 16 = REALLY?  YOU LIKE MY PANTS?

 Hello!  And welcome to Chat ENG – a podcast where people chat about how they learn and use English.  My name is Sam, I’m a CELTA teacher and a performer, and I have a particular interest in pronunciation and expression.   

 In each episode, non-native and native speakers will chat about their experiences with English, share their advice and, at the end, I’ll give some pronunciation tips for you to take away and practice.  

 So – ready?  Let’s get Chat ENG!

 This episode, I’m chatting with Trevor.  Trevor is an international opera singer – he’s a Bass – originally from Canada, and is now in the UK.  We met online, as we’re in different countries, so we had a virtual cup of tea while we chatted … Trevor loves tea and tea cups as much as I do!  

We chatted about discovering you have an accent, the challenges of singing in English, and being excited about new English vocabulary, but I started by asking Trevor to tell me a little about himself… 

INTERVIEW

T: Hello, well, I am a Canadian living in London. I've been in Britain, gosh, since 2006, so nearly 15 years now. So I've lived up and down the country really, I started in Glasgow, and then I moved to Leeds for work, which was a totally different experience! I couldn't really wait to get to London, and when the opportunity arose, it was a total joy. And there's no looking back - I love living here! So, I'm an opera singer, and I love to knit. And I don't know what else to say, really. But that's a good beginning!

S: I think it's a great beginning, and you're a fantastic knitter! Let's go back to the very beginning then, Trevor, as a Canadian, how would you describe your English? Like, are you a typical Canadian, the way you speak? Or is your English influenced by any particular region?

T: Well, in terms of regions, if I'm totally honest, I think there's almost nothing perceptible in the regions in Canada. I mean, people from the Ottawa Valley would disagree - but that's one region! And it's very minor differences, in my opinion. Newfoundland is a totally different planet really, linguistically. That's cool. But, you know, growing up on Vancouver Island, where I did, my English was not really any different from the English in Toronto, where my mum's family was from. I don't think growing up where I did influenced my English so much, but I did, when I was little, I went to private school for a few years, and there was a bit of formality drilled into me. Also, I think my, you know, my family was a bit old fashioned, so people might have thought that, you know, I would speak in a bit of a fancy way or something in termes of accent. No, that said, don't take anything from the way I'm speaking now as a representation of Canadian English, because my accent has totally migrated and it's not really Canadian anymore!

S: Do you think that your accent has changed? Have you had to modify the way that you speak, do you think?

T: There are certain words that I've learned to stop saying, such as, you know, I really like your pants, you know! to be really clear about things that mean different things in different countries. But I mean, apart from that, not really, but it, again, it has migrated. I have some Canadian friends who live in Scotland, one of whom, after a year of living there had like a thick Edinburgh brogue (Wow!) and he and his wife, still, you know, nearly 20 years later, sounds like she's from Ontario - there's no hint that the Scottish is creeping in. So I think there's something in our personalities that, you know, allows us to bring these elements in or, or that we bend to accents that surround us, and for some people, it just doesn't happen.

S: That's quite a choice, isn't it? to not allow the accent to infiltrate the way you speak, I think...

T: Or is it that we're just not influenced so easily? I mean, you know, is it just a sense of, this is who I am, I know myself, and nothing's going to change me. I don't, I don't really know, whether it's nature or nurture. When you grow up, you, you speak a certain way, you don't think anything of it. And then when you experience different accents, you start to realise and when you're surrounded in different accents, you start to realise, oh, god, no, I do have an accent! My whole family has an accent! (Yeah!) And, you know, maybe it's growing up in Canada, and there's a lot of American television that we, you know, we experience all over the world. And you, that's sort of becomes normal English, if you think of it that way. So, I always just took my kind of speaking my English as normal.

S: When I think of Canadians and I think that the Canadian accent I always think about where I would use the sound 'about' a Canadian would say 'aboot'. I don't know why that's a thing that people hold on?!

T: I mean, when I first moved to Glasgow, and people would say "Oh, what's that about? Heee! What's that at a boot?!". I like "what? you guys say about... a boot" - I can't even do it. It's like it's funny, but it's not it's not "a boot" I say "about" but I have friends in Canada who say "no, no, no, it's a boat. It's a boat".

S: Like a boat on the sea?

T: A bit more like a boat on the sea! So, I don't know - it is different. It's particular, but it is not "a boot" people of the world! (That's right!) it's not a boot! And that's it, within English, there are so many, again, dialects or even just accents and different turns of phrase. I mean, if you're not au fait with Twitter, there will be lots of turns of phrase that you just don't understand (Sure). So this reminds me a lot of Mid Atlantic that we use, like, particularly in opera, like classical singing, anything on stage that people will ask you to use a Mid Atlantic accent. So it's, the thing is, it doesn't exist. People don't speak that way - except I would argue maybe I do now! Maybe I'm the exception to this, I'm genuinely Mid Atlantic! But it's something to kind of describe an idea of a certain kind of English, a certain kind of speech.

S: This leads really nicely on to my next question, then I was going to ask - as an opera singer, a native English speaker - singing in English, does that make it easier or harder for you?

T: It's a tricky one. It depends how you approach it. I mean, there are textbooks written on singing in English. In my experience, singing operas in English, nobody refers to those. Nobody has even studied them, really. So like, for example, at English National Opera, it's more, there's someone out listening, this word hasn't come across, I didn't hear this consonant, whatever. It's, it's a reality based situation, and a lot of people use regional accents, especially in comic opera, to make things clearer. I mean, if you inhabit an accent, you inhabit a character, a sense of being, as opposed to saying "No, we need slightly retroflex Rs, but not too much", you know, you have to think "what is the situation? How am I using this English?" If you're doing something very dramatic and serious, obviously you're not going to, you know, bring out your Cockney like Dick Van Dyke, sort of, you know, if you use these accents, they can be amazing dramatically. Even in singing, I think.

S: Yeah, because sometimes you listen to singers, and all of a sudden, you hear this big rolled R, you know, so, for example, the word grumble, and you think 'grr', but if you had... sometimes you hear people singing, then they say "grrrrrrrumble" and you think "Is that right?" I don't know. Do we just accept that or not?

T: Yeah, I mean, if it sounds false, you know, you would never in a million years speak that way. But of course, there was an old school of singing in English, where they did roll their Rs and you, you listen to recordings from London from, you know, the early half of the 20th century, and they just did it and thought nothing of it. Now, I think it, perhaps it's in relation to other aspects of pop culture and different kinds of recording artists now. Often, frankly, I can't understand their words, either (No!), but, you know, you expect a more speech like approach to singing, but we have to do it in a way that can be understood in a 2500 seat auditorium (Exactly) in operas. So that's where I think using accent, and, and character can really inhabit the language, so that even if you miss a consonant, you've actually understood the word because there's an inflection there.

S: Yeah, absolutely. What about your own English? Is there anything that you would change or improve about the way that you use English?

T: I mean, I would love to finally understand the point and the proper use of the semi-colon!

S: Good luck!

T: Or like, when do we really need the commas? and, like, I don't know, these are little things that... they kind of don't, you can get around writing in English without peppering commas everywhere, or without using the semi-colon probably. I would like to know that better, but I've had it explained so many times, and it just has never really landed with me! So that's, that's something but... the longer you live, and the longer you experience speaking with people of all different backgrounds, and so on... like you, there's always more to be found in English. So, there's nothing specifically I want but I'm curious to see what else I will learn, or what else is developing in the language. You know, this can come from, you know, watching a television show or play, or reading, or, again, just being on Twitter or something and reading what people are writing, because it's quite illuminating to see, in that sense, how language is changing on the street.

S: Yeah, it's a live language and it will just evolve and, I guess, with all the means in which we communicate, it will just evolve quicker and quicker and quicker.

T: I think you're right. It's just it's, it's picking up pace, and there's no sign of it slowing down. You know, I think back to my grandparents and they were sort of disdainful of how we would speak and how things were changing and "Oh.. change!" And, you know, "people don't don't speak the way they used to, they can handwrite anymore". But as long as you embrace it, and you enjoy it. And, you know, I love when people introduce a new word that is kind of hilarious. I love it! And as long as you embrace it, there's nothing to... there's no problem with the language changing, I think.

S: I think that is gorgeous. Thank you so much, Trevor. Is there anything that you'd like to add that we haven't maybe covered that you've been thinking about?

T: Well, I don't know. I think if you're learning English, one of the things to watch out for and to really pick up on and enjoy is irony and sarcasm, because I think it's used in English in a way that doesn't really come up in other languages. Even in, you know, North American English - it doesn't exist in the same way that exists in Britain. And that's where the fun of the language is, and that's where you'll start to really enjoy the more you know, I think.

S: Absolutely. Well, will you though? 🤨

T: Oh, yeah, I'm really gonna enjoy that! 🙄

S: Really? 🤨 Thanks. Thanks for that. 🙄. Yeah, that is true, it is a particularly.. 

T: Whatever! 🙄

S: Yeah, whatever...

(Music) 

I think Trevor is right to be excited about the future of the English language, so let’s be open to discovering new vocabulary, be curious about how social media can positively play with the language.  As we said, English is a live language, always evolving, and technology means that it’ll evolve at a faster pace than before… so let’s all enjoy the journey together!

So – this episode’s pronunciation tip is an expression tip linked to Trevor’s final advice … learning how to identify, and maybe uses, irony and sarcasm.  Th are very British thing to master, so this might be a bit difficult to explain… but I’m going to try anyway!

First – Irony.  Irony is not ironing, making your shirts nice and flat!  Irony is a way in which we express a contrast, something that is opposite, in a funny way.  One example this is if the weather is very bad… lots of rain, lots of wind, there’s thunder, it’s very cold… and you say “this is good weather for a long walk!”.  The statement is ironic, because usually good weather for a long walk is warm and sunny with blue skies, so the statement is the opposite of the situation.   

Next - Sarcasm.  Sarcasm is also a way to express a contrast or an opposite, but this time we use it to be negative - to mock someone or show we are unhappy with a situation.  The way we understand the difference is in the way someone speaks – their intonation tells us if they are being sarcastic.  Let me show you 2 examples:  

One – When we want to congratulate someone who has done something well, has maybe received excellent exam results – we can say “Oh, well done!”  We are happy for them and their achievement.  When we want to show that we are not happy with their work actions, We can say “Oh, well done!”. For example: A) “I lost my bus ticket again!” B) “Oh well done!”

Two – We can say “Really?” to show that a person has given us new information, maybe it’s surprising, and you are interested = “Really? I didn’t know that!”     We can also say “Really?” to show that perhaps this is not new information for us and we want to mock the person for telling us.  For example – A) “lots of chocolate and butter is bad for you.”  B) “Really? I didn’t know that.”

 
Finally, to summarise, the real difference I think between irony and sarcasm is in the way in which we speak, our intonation… the words or phrases we use for sarcasm can sound more negative and the words maybe sound longer for emphasis than for irony.  If you go back to the irony example of “it’s a good day for a long walk!”, a sarcastic version might be “oh, what wonderful weather!” – obviously, the rain, the thunder, the cold, and the wind are not ‘wonderful’(they’re terrible!), so the longer sounds emphasise that we are not happy.  

I guess the rule we have here is: You can be as ironic as you like - just remember to use sarcasm carefully, as it can be very unkind!

Over to you to explore!

So there we are!  The transcript of this episode is available to read on the podcast’s webpage, so take a look!  

Join me next time for more pronunciation and grammar tips, more advice and, most importantly, more chatting!

My thanks again to Trevor and, for her music, a massive thanks to the wonderful Mara Carlyle.  Bye for now!